The decline and fall of Honor Harrington

[bibliogramma]

Sometimes a series gets better as it goes along; something it stays at the same level, be that good, middling or bad. And sometimes a series just seems to go into a slow freefall, dragging out its characters and ideas - originally fresh and interesting - into interminable and inevitably repetitious sequences of poorly written dreck.

And so I come to talk - at least tangentially - about the 11th Honor Harrington novel by David Weber - At All Costs.

Just so you understand, I loved On Basilisk Station, the novel that introduced Honor Harrington. I deeply enjoyed the next few books in the series. But then I started getting blurry-eyed over the technobabble and innumerable weapons upgrades and the endlessly repetitive battle sequences:

Havenite with name ripped off from the French Revolution: Release the ::weapons technobabble::

Aspiring young Manticorean officer on deck: Look, the Havenites have released their new ::weapons technobabble:: There must be thousands of ::weapons technobabble::

Manticorean Military Leader: Right, we must release our clever new ::weapons technobabble::

Another aspiring young Manticorean officer: Oh dear, we've taken a lot of ::damage technobabble::, what can we do?

Honor Harrington: Let's ::tactical technobabble::, ::weapons technobabble::, ::shipboard technobabble::, rinse and repeat.

Another aspiring young Manticorean officer: Thank heavens, Honor Harrington saved us by ::tactical technobabble::, ::weapons technobabble::, ::shipboard technobabble::, rinse and repeat.

The greatful people of (insert your planet name here): Honor Harrington is so wonderful, let's change all of our laws and customs so we can give her still more honour! (The pun works better in American English).

Honor Harrington: Oh, Admiral, let's go home and fuck, now that you and your other wife have married me.

It's not just that by this time Honor Harrington is so clearly Weber's Mary Sue that it's laughable. It's not just that half of the book is unreadable because it's nothing but pages and pages of the driest exposition, telling the reader about the military, political, tactical and scientific situations, circumstances and backstories, rather than showing us all of this through what the characters are doing (and no, having them all sit around in a conference room mouthing the exposition is not "showing rather than telling). It's not just that the politics of Weber's Honorverse have become more and more labyrinthine and the cast list and backstory so complex that - frankly - it would be easier to keep the people and events of the real French Revolution in order, and if you've ever done that, you'll know it's not that easy.

And it's not just that Weber really, really, really needs an editor who's not afraid to throw out half the book and make him re-write the other half. (More worth reading on this from guyindkny.)

It's that a story with some really interesting female characters has been buried so deep under all of this crap that you can't find the exciting military officer of On Basilisk Station anywhere in this mess anymore.

The saddest thing is that I was so taken by the original Honor Harrington, I continue to buy the novels, skimming through at least half of the verbiage just to see what the Honor I remember is going these days.

Comments

[cynthia1960.livejournal.com]

What you said, and it hurts more when you've got a character named after you in the Honorverse. Actually, I thought Hamish Alexander was Weber's Mary Sue.

[(Anonymous)]

it hurts more when you've got a character named after you in the Honorverse.

I was thinking of you when I wrote this, and for that reason.

Actually, I thought Hamish Alexander was Weber's Mary Sue.

I dunno. By definition, Mary Sue always saves the day, and she's better than everyone at everything. That's not Hamish, that's Honor.

Unless you posit a kind of Mary Sue Vicaria, who wants to be the partner of the woman who always saves the day and is better than everyone at anything. I suppose that would be the ultimate wet dream of a certain sort of geekish fanboy, and maybe that does make Hamish the Mary Sue Vicaria, with Honor the Ultimate Wet Dream.

[bibliogramma.livejournal.com]

That anaonymous comment was me. Silly LiveJounal, not knowing who I am at any given moment.

[cynthia1960.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that distinction is a good one. The funny thing is, I actually thought book 11 was a slight improvement over book 10.

[morgan-dhu.livejournal.com]

I will now answer you as my other persona, just to make things even more confusing.

I actually thought book 11 was a slight improvement over book 10.

It may have been. I'm not actually reading them anymore - I stopped after #9. Now, I'm mostly skimming to get the basic plot and only reading the Honor scenes to find out what's going on with her. Sad but true.

[guyindkny.livejournal.com]

I met David Weber almost two weeks ago. He sat on a panel about writing description, and when is it too much. He acknowledged that in certain circles, he is notorious for his infodumping. Alas, he also justifies it by saying that he would rather the narrator tell you everything you need to know rather than employ implausible "as you know, Bob" lines of dialogue throughout. He didn't seem to get that most of what he has a burning desire to tell us about each and every character ends up being extraneous in the long run. Because it is--you may feel the need to hold my hand and walk me through the character's motivations like I'm a child, but I'm pretty clever and would understand that people have their own reasons for their actions, and a hint is all I need--not a full chapter devoted to their backstory. He also doesn't seem to get the fact that Honor is a Mary Sue, and he went on about how she'll never regenerate because that's how she stays so "human" and realises the price for her actions (aside from being the Nelson analogue). Special telepathic powers, magical animal friends and her being the most beautiful/clever/honourable/youngest/bestest-whatever-ever be damned. Oh wait--she doesn't have red or auburn hair, so she can't be a real Mary Sue then. *rolls eyes*

[bibliogramma.livejournal.com]

He sat on a panel about writing description, and when is it too much.

This is just too funny. Even if the man acknowledges that he infodumps constantly and frequently, he still does too much of most other things, too - as you noted.

It's sad when an author becomes so unable to see the flaws in his work. I can handle Mary Sue fiction when the author knows what she's doing - one of my favourite Star Trek novels is Uhura's Song, and if Kagan isn't writing Mary Sue in that, I'll eat my hat.

But it's relatively restrained Mary Sue, and it doesn't bend anyone out of character, and it's got a good story, and it's well written, and all that stuff.

Unlike what's happening with Weber in the Honorverse.

[(Anonymous)]

These books are really good. The info dumps aren't that bad if you pay attention to what they are saying. Just because a book is intelligent doesn't mean you have to skim though it. As an audience, Americans have gotten lazy and dumb over the last 20 years. This book forces you to think about what is happening while you read, so when you do get to those "honor scenes" its more fulfilling. Kind of like practicing delayed-gratification. Is that really a bad thing? Take it at a slower pace and enjoy the details, maybe you will understand it then. besides, a lot of his tech theories are very true to what we know of our universe; and that is pretty cool.

[(Anonymous)]

Good god you must be trolling. Try reading the Dune series, or the Revelation Space series, or anything by Asimov, Philip K.Dick or Heinlein. The Honorverse is just about as far as you can possibly get from intelligent sci-fi.

I disagree

[(Anonymous)]

I've read the entire series and it's not dry at all. It's character driven, and not every chapter has death and combat, but that isn't a bad thing. It says more about the reader that can't keep up with it than the author.

Mixed emotions

[(Anonymous)]

Honor frustrates the crap out of me. Yes, its a lot of technobabble, etc. And it gets really hard to read at points. There are a few books in the middle I only half-read because I couldn't manage to care about the intricacies of the politics, but I must be a masochist because I keep buying and reading them. The worst for me was Shadow Of Freedom: In the middle of a lot on interesting stuff was the same conversation 4 times. Why did the same conversation happen 4 times? Because the bad guys are having it with 4 different groups they plan to dupe, on 4 different planets. The first time, it needed to happen. The second, it needed an editor: I just needed to understand that they were doing this all over the galaxy. The third time I wanted to cut a chapter out of my book. The fourth time had me considering registering DavidWeberEdited.com and releasing fan edits of his books....

Entirely Opposite

[(Anonymous)]

My opinion is entirely opposite. The first half of the series is just trite "French Revolution - IN SPACE!". The shallow premise is only held up by the characters, and Weber's universe-building. The series only really starts coming into its own with Ashes of Victory, when it drops the weary French Revolution conceit with Bonaparte-AKA-McQueen's demise. The ret-conning of Mesa's masterminding all of recent history is a bit awkward, but it's so much better than the original focus of the story, it's pretty much justified.

The fact that you call the novels full of "technobabble" is probably the key to why you don't enjoy them. Weber's fictional physics are detailed, and internally consistent. If you pay attention, you can predict technological developments before they arrive on the scene, because the physics and tactical discussions provide enough detail for you to do so. That's not the mark of "babble".

Finally, accusations of "Mary Sue" just make me roll my eyes these days. The term was originally used to describe characters fan fiction authors injected into a show with an ensemble cast. When we're talking about a series focused on a single character, there's a different term - "protagonist". That Odysseus, what a Mary Sue.

Re: Entirely Opposite

[(Anonymous)]

Protagonist and Mary Sue are two different things. A protagonist can be a Mary Sue and Honor is one.

Techobable

[(Anonymous)]

I really enjoy the books. I like the backstory and buildup of all the characters and political situation. But what makes this book different from a lot of other books is just that, the technobabble. For me it's what separate this series from a lot of other series. When David "sidesteps" in the middle of a battle to explain the technology used and why it works the way it does, that's my favorite parts of the books.

Re: Techobable

[(Anonymous)]

The problem I am having is with lazy quality of writing in latest in Honorverse books is that after At All Costs, David Webber developed a new habit in writing, and not infordump, its much more annoying. He basically writes a scene, a chapter or two from a POV. Then he has another book - from a side-lines of Honorverse - aka "Shadow of" books and "Crown of Slaves" and he REPEATS that scene/chapter/conversation/observation/explanation - word for word. The only thing he changes is that of POV, the difference between 1st POV and 3rd POV. When commented upon, I believe explanation was that he wanted to describe the situation from different POV. But all he did was change pronouns from "I said" to "He said" and added description of anger/joy/sorrow.
What it feels like a lazy writing, something to pad page count - same chapter or 10 for two books. I can't believe nobody called out him on that. I can safely say that part of Cauldron of Ghosts that was different was written by Eric Flint his co-writer, all chapters written by David were copied from Rising Thunder and from Shadow of Freedom. Thats not writing style, thats faking it